How Compassion Comes Alive In Community: With Caverly Morgan [Podcast]

Self-compassion is much more than a personal practice. This guru of contemplative practice is taking compassion into schools, communities, and workplaces. Listen to the audio or read the transcript for this episode of The Compassionate Accountability® Podcast featuring Caverly Morgan.

Caverly Morgan is a spiritual teacher, non-profit founder, speaker, and author who brings the original spirit of Zen to addressing current problems in our world. Her practice began in 1995 and has included eight years of training in a silent Zen monastery. 

Since 2001 Caverly has been teaching contemplative practice to clients around the world. She is the founder of Peace in Schools, a nonprofit that created the nation’s first for-credit mindfulness class in public high schools. Caverly is passionate about creating opportunities for people to experience compassion in community and connection. 

What’s In This Episode

• Caverly’s definition of compassion Misconceptions and barriers around practicing compassion.
• The paradox of how being at peace increases motivation.
• The problem with our societal model of self-improvement.
• Examples of collective compassion practices with groups and in organizations.
• How do we deal with the conflict within transformative group practices?
• Training educators to introduce contemplative technologies in schools.
• A story of how a student’s life was transformed by a compassion practice.

Listen To The Audio

Read The Transcript

Nate Regier:

Hello, I’m Nate Regier, founder and CEO of Next Element, a global consulting and training firm helping organizations transform their cultures with Compassionate Accountability®. Thanks for joining me on the Compassionate Accountability Podcast where we get to meet amazing people who are bringing more compassion to the world. I hope you’ll find something useful in this episode. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe, rate and review to help us reach more listeners. Be sure to visit our website at next-element.com where you can learn more about our work and check out all of our previous episodes.

I love it when one of my guests refers someone they know because it’s almost always a good fit for my podcast. I was introduced to Caverly Morgan by Kristin Neff, one of the most influential self-compassion researchers and practitioners and a previous guest on my show. And after our conversation, Kristin said I had to meet Caverly so here we are. Caverly Morgan is a spiritual teacher, a nonprofit founder, speaker and author who brings the original spirit of Zen to addressing current problems in our world. Her practice began in 1995, which has included eight years of training in a silent Zen monastery.  Can’t wait to hear a little bit about that. Since 2001, Caverly has been teaching contemplative practice to clients around the world.

She’s the founder of Peace in Schools, a nonprofit that created the nation’s first for-credit mindfulness class in public high schools. Caverly is passionate about creating opportunities for people to experience compassion in community and connection. I love this. It’s so aligned with my belief that transformation happens in the Interaction. Caverly is the author of two books and has been featured in various publications and I’m delighted to welcome her to my show to explore how she’s manifesting compassion and accountability in the world. So, Caverly, welcome to the Compassionate Accountability Podcast.

Caverly Morgan:

Thank you so much, Nate. It’s a real honor to be here and, as you said, when I checked out what you were doing, I was so delighted to see how much overlap there is. Just shared passion, vision, enthusiasm.

Nate Regier:

I know, it’s been great. And the more I learn about your work, the more I see that overlap. And I wonder, before we dive into what you’re doing these days, I always love to hear a bit about the journey of my guests because so much of those formative influencers are part of your story and I’m curious if you’d be willing to share a few highlights about what was along your path getting to here.

Caverly Morgan:

Absolutely. I think the highlight is that I grew up without a lot of excess suffering. I grew up in a family where there was enough privilege, societal privilege as well as just the privilege of my specific context that I never wondered where my next meal was coming from.  I can’t say I was someone who suffered a lot. And I put that in quotes because I think a lot of what was going on as I was growing up is I didn’t recognize the internal suffering that I, later in life, after my first Zen meditation retreat was able to see … I was able to see that something was going on that was optional, that I had just assumed was how life worked and it had to do with my relationship to myself, others and the world but in a more internalized fashion.

Nate Regier:

Wow.

Caverly Morgan:

So, that led to monastic training which led to a real deep dive into is it possible to not suffer? Is it possible to, of course we’re going to have pain in life, but is it possible to move through life either without suffering or with less suffering? I was open to whatever the incremental route might be.

Nate Regier:

Yeah.

Caverly Morgan:

Mm-hmm.

Nate Regier:

Well, we’ve already heard a couple words thrown around, compassion, suffering, contemplative, meditation, these are big words. And I know that compassion is a foundational theme for you and, obviously, that’s one of the main connections between us. But as you know and as my listeners know, I’m a stickler for working definitions. With my background in behavioral science, I believe that we need shared mental models for the things that we’re trying to work on and build. So, how do you define compassion?

Caverly Morgan:

Thank you so much and I love that I wasn’t given this question ahead of time because it lets me see what’s true about compassion in this moment without just referring to something rote. And in this moment, what’s true about compassion is that compassion’s a byproduct of knowing that we are connected. So, when I know our inner connection. For example, when I know that I’m not separate from you, Nate, compassion naturally is there. And I do think it’s valuable to underline this because sometimes compassion is defined as something we have to strive for or go and get but my experience of compassion is that it’s a way to speak about the love that is there when I recognize our interconnection. Of course-

Nate Regier:

I know there is-

Caverly Morgan:

Oh yes, please.

Nate Regier:

No, no, go ahead.

Caverly Morgan:

I was just going to acknowledge that, of course, there is the standard definition that it’s to suffer with, to be with, to have a type of empathy that is truly based on interconnection. But as we define it, I’d like to take this opportunity to underline that it’s something innate and that it’s a byproduct of a deep recognition.

Nate Regier:

So, you’re describing it as it emerges from the understanding, the recognition, the embracing that we are connected.

Caverly Morgan:

Yes. It’s my experience, yeah.

Nate Regier:

Yeah. In this understanding, if it’s more of a byproduct of recognizing our connection and it’s not necessarily something we build and strive for and try to create or you’ve mentioned that it’s not something that we have to get right or something that we do. Will you say a little bit more about this emergent quality of compassion as an experience?

Caverly Morgan:

Yes. Nate, the thing that keeps arising for me to touch on is, I know from our exchanges before this opportunity for a face-to-face, that you’re a very dedicated and committed father and that it occurs to me that you might imagine or you might … I’ll ask you if you feel that you have to do something in order to find compassion for … Do you have one child or more than one?

Nate Regier:

I have three daughters, three daughters.

Caverly Morgan:

Three daughters? Yeah-

Nate Regier:

Who I spent lots of time with recently so this is a very relevant question I feel you’re going to be asking.

Caverly Morgan:

Yeah. I’m just curious if you have to do something in order to find that experience of compassion for your three daughters.

Nate Regier:

No. Actually, it’s just the opposite. It’s really when we just are that we’re just being together maybe without expectations, without an agenda, without any of that that it probably emerges the most or I experience it the most.

Caverly Morgan:

That’s how it is for me too. And so, what interests me at this point in my work is supporting people in recognizing who they are so that they have the opportunity to be flooded with this very natural experience of love and compassion.

Nate Regier:

Well, so you’ve touched on your work and how does what you’re describing relate to the work that you’re doing now? Will you describe that?

Caverly Morgan:

My work revolves around supporting people and knowing the heart of who they are. And I recognize, here I am, I’m doing the right marketing thing of referencing my own book title in a podcast but I do love that title. I love that I got to choose that title because, in a way, I feel that all my work revolves around this notion of what does it mean to recognize and remember the heart of who we truly are. And by that I mean that, for so many of us, we get a little confused about who we truly are. Our identities get wrapped up with what we do or whether we’re successful at what we do or our role as a father or our role as a daughter. There’s so many different hats that we’re all habituated, conditioned and sometimes, really appropriately so, sometimes with conscious choice, to wear.

And so, what interests me is who are we underneath all of those identities, underneath all of those labels? Who are we that is the same? Who we are that was true when we were 5 or 10 or 15 or now? And in my experience, when we touch this, when we know this, that’s when it’s, again, very accessible to know love, to know happiness, joy, the peace of our own being. And compassion tends to radiate from that knowing. And my work is to support people in knowing this experience, in touching this, in being able to live this. And as you know, and one of the things we connect over, then to bring that into our workspaces or, in my case, I do support organizations, businesses with these practices and contemplative technologies. And as you’ve mentioned, I also support educators and school systems because what an important place to remember the heart of who we are in school when working with young people.

Nate Regier:

When you’re working with people around this, are there some common walls or barriers that people face and what’s on the other side?

Caverly Morgan:

Thank you very much, that’s such a good question. As you mentioned, we know each other through Dr. Kristin Neff’s work. She and I just led a retreat together and one of the things she’s famous for underlining is that we are deeply habituated to believe that, if we had self-compassion, we’d lose motivation. And in that same way, I find that many people believe that, if they spent time or resources, energy, exploring the inquiry of who am I truly, that it would actually derail them from the work of their life, from being the person they want to be in the world, from achieving high standards at work. Of course, just like Kristin Neff’s research shows, the opposite is actually true but it doesn’t feel that way when we’re caught in this deep belief system that we need to strive in order to keep up.

Nate Regier:

Yeah, I recall Dr. Neff talking about that and there’s something in there that has stuck with me. There seems to be a bit of a paradox that, when we see ourselves as human doings, that our identity is really wrapped up in all these achievements and everything, then it’s really always about striving, it’s really about getting to that next thing which seems a little bit opposite from this sense of contentedness or being that goes with self-compassion. And at the same time, the paradox is this belief that you just mentioned that, if we are at peace, then somehow we’re not motivated. We need to be somehow uncomfortable or striving to be able to be working towards something and you’re saying that, no, these things can both exist.

Caverly Morgan:

In fact, Nate, your next interview perhaps should be with my husband, that would be just comedy comedic relief for your listeners. Because he’s now been with me long enough to see that it’s when I’m most grounded in who I am that creative juices flow, passion for where to move next with what’s possible, specifically regarding collective change, collective transformation, that energy comes from presence. It comes from compassion for self and other that, again, we experience as we rest deeply and fully in presence. And that’s why what interests me is how to support others in resting in the presence that actually leads to the very things that we’re told by society, culture, the conditioned mind we have to achieve external things in order to experience.  We have to look outside ourselves for those measurements. In truth, those measurements naturally occur as we’re moving through the world from this recognition of the heart of who we are in my experience.

Nate Regier:

Oh, I would love to hear some more about how this works in groups and I mentioned in the introduction about I’m just so aligned with this idea of the collective that we discover this within relationships. Before we get there, though, you tapped into something I want to come back to. I understand you’re not a fan of self-improvement and I’m struck by that. So, will you say more about that?

Caverly Morgan:

Absolutely. It’s true, I have a lot of questions about our current societal model of self-improvement and what the byproduct of striving for self-improvement is. And so, for most of us, self-improvement actually keeps a small and limited sense of an individual self in place. So, how many of us have set a goal or, here we are in January, set a new year’s resolution? Maybe we meet it but how long do we get to hang out in the success of that before we’re striving again. For most of us, we actually, we don’t meet it and we end up constantly in that rat wheel of trying to improve ourselves.

So, the thing that doesn’t work about self-improvement to me is, and that I think often doesn’t get questioned, is that, in a model of self-improvement, there’s always a sense of separate self to improve. So it reaffirms a sense of separateness. Rather than … Some people think that, “Oh, okay, well, so then that’s suggesting, if I were to live a life where I’m resting in presence all the time, I’d lose my uniqueness or my personality or I would just be some blah being,” and that’s not true at all.

Again, in my experience, it’s when we’re resting in presence that the personality gets used in service of a greater love, a greater compassion. And from that service, we tend to be deeply engaged in life and then, ironically enough, people around us tend to say, “Gosh, you sure are a lot more pleasant to be around than you were when you were in that small, limited stuck in the sense of separate self.” You’re not defending yourself in the same ways, you’re not fighting life in the same ways, you’re not angry.

Nate Regier:

Untethered.

Caverly Morgan:

Mm-hmm. You’re untethered, you’re untethered and freedom is contagious.

Nate Regier:

So, how do you do this? How does this collective practice work? Will you give us some examples of this?

Caverly Morgan:

Sure, yeah. What I love about collective practice is that, for many people, especially those who take on a mindfulness practice, practice is something we do by ourselves, we work on ourselves, we do these practices, we become more responsive, less reactive. All those things are great things but then we struggle once we hit our workplace, then we struggle once we’re in relationship especially … The reason I like workplaces or school systems is because we’re being asked by life to work things out with folks we didn’t choose to necessarily be in relationship with. Here we are, we’re all working for the same school administration and we have different political beliefs, we have different conditioning, we have different ways we’ve learned to survive in the world. So, what’s interesting to me is to have shared practices that allow a group to move into a more transformed relationship with themselves, each other and the work environment because there’s been a shared movement.

So, that might look like unpacking some conditioned assumptions and beliefs in the workplace. If I’m in a workplace, let’s say an educational setting, this is an actual example. Let’s say, in my educational setting, there is a deep belief that, if I don’t overwork, it will be assumed I don’t care as an educator. So, for example, if I’ve got a meditation retreat coming up, I can’t put that on my shared calendar at work because people will assume I’m woo woo or don’t care or not working hard and so I have to call it a training. I have to say I’m on a training and then hope that no one finds out that was meditation or contemplative technologies offered.

So, what happens when we unpack shared beliefs and assumptions, get to the root of them and then create change with tools? Or create change that really, not only creates personal transformation, but collective shifting because there are new collective guidelines that more accurately reflect the heart of who we are? Shared guidelines that reflect the heart of who we are.

Nate Regier:

Are you talking about shared guidelines like new commitments to how we’re going to be with each other?

Caverly Morgan:

Yes, yes, and those new commitments can only be transformational, truly fresh and alive, if we’ve unpacked, as you said, what’s been getting in the way. What are the blocks that arise in this work environment that usually don’t get questioned, that usually are just the water we’re swimming in? So, the step one, as you know, I do some work that I’ve titled The Path of Realizing Freedom Together. And in this pathway, one of the processes is seeing what binds us but then dismantling, really unpacking.  Did we just inherit these shared beliefs, are we consciously choosing them as a workplace or as a school?

Nate Regier:

One of the things that we bump up against and can’t ignore in these scenarios is the reality of conflict and the reality of, when people come together as I think we’re meant to be, we now introduce a lot more static in the system because we’re bringing beautiful individuality or beautiful uniqueness, different ways of seeing the world, different passions, we’re bringing it together. And celebrating it is one thing and allowing it is one thing, however, I just can’t help but believe that the conflict is inherent and purposeful because of how we’re special. So, how do we reconcile this? How do we reconcile the energy of conflict in these situations?

Caverly Morgan:

Well, I think, Nate, I think you’re doing it through your share which is touching to me. Where, in your sharing, there’s an inherent recognition that conflict is inevitable and that it doesn’t have to be seen as a bad thing. Are you actually married at the moment or do you have a…

Nate Regier:

I am, yes.

Caverly Morgan:

… life partner? So, you might have the same experience I do where you are able to recognize it would be foolish to think that you could be in a life partnership and never have any conflict arise. Am I right or do you have the perfect marriage?

Nate Regier:

Oh, absolutely. I would-

Caverly Morgan:

Do you have the perfect marriage that some people are striving-

Nate Regier:

Well, I think, if there was no conflict, it would not be a very good marriage.

Caverly Morgan:

Exactly, exactly. So, many of us are conditioned or habituated to see conflict as something worth avoiding, as something that won’t actually lead us to deeper connection and I believe the same thing is true in a workplace –  that step one is to recognize the importance of shedding all of these limiting beliefs we have around what conflict even is.

Nate Regier:

What comes after-

Caverly Morgan:

What if-

Nate Regier:

Oh, go ahead.

Caverly Morgan:

Yeah. Well, what if in a … Let’s say I’m in a workplace, what if, in my workplace, every time conflict arose, I saw it as a chance to have more authentic relationship with the people that I work with, deeper connection and shared vision, mission, deeper sense of shared purpose and then capacity to be more efficient in our shared purpose?

Nate Regier:

With you 100%. And then that leads to so how do we do that?

Caverly Morgan:

In my experience, we’re … I’ll start with how to not do it. So many workplaces, so many settings that say they’d like to have a more compassionate work environment or compassionate school aren’t examining, as you said, what blocks it, what gets in the way. So, I think there has to be a shared examination of what can block the knowing of who we are together. And then, in my experience, there are contemplative technologies and tools that, when applied collectively, transform an environment.

So, really, my short answer with now following what doesn’t work and how the tools do is practice. A practice of seeing, a practice of being awake together, a practice of shared letting go of what tends to get in the way of our inherent freedom, personally and then in relationship, knowing each other, working together. And most workplaces are allergic to the notion of shared practice. We focus so much-

Nate Regier:

Well, absolutely.

Caverly Morgan:

… outcome, yeah.

Nate Regier:

Absolutely. We are both in the business of application that these are things we do with each other. It’s not just something nice to have, this really, it has to get down to the nitty-gritty daily conversations, the real problems we’re solving, how we reconcile our goals. I am so with you that we need tangible practices, things that our rituals and routines for how we do this so that we can steward that energy in a positive way. You’re doing some neat stuff with schools and I was so fascinated by what you shared in a previous conversation about an actual for-credit class for high school students to learn some of these things. Will you share just a little bit about that?

Caverly Morgan:

Absolutely. Yeah, I’m the founder of Peace in Schools and, after 10 years of working with this program and watching it flourish, we’re now in an expansion stage of our work where we’ve created a pilot program in which we train educators directly. When I started the nonprofit, we were training contemplatives to bring these tools, these contemplative technologies that I also bring into retreat settings, I also bring into online classes, bring into workplaces as you’re hearing educational settings at large.  We bring these tools into classrooms. And over these 10 years, as these mindfulness instructors have been sharing these tools, we’ve seen tremendous personal and collective transformation. And so, now we’re in the process of flipping this model so that we can really scale what we know has worked.

Nate Regier:

What are some of the … Do you have just an example, a person or a relationship or something that stands out for you that you could share to give us a human connection to this?

Caverly Morgan:

Sure, absolutely. This is just the first one that came to mind so I’ll share it. There are lots of stories about teens who will say this class saved my life but, just in relationship to what we’ve been talking about and the work I do in workplaces and educational settings at large, it was very touching to me when a student of mine … And by the way, I have lots of stories in the book The Heart of Who We Are for anyone interested. But one thing that comes to mind to share with you today is that there was a student who had been known for not communicating very well, the parents were struggling, they couldn’t get a sense of how to support their teen and what was going on, I’m sure a lot of people listening can relate to having a teenager who struggles with communication.

And so, this teen, the mother was upstairs and she was starting to come down the stairs and she paused on the stairwell because she overheard her teen who had been struggling with communication reflectively listening to his sister. And so, the sister was talking about her experience and he was listening and then he was reflecting her own words back to her and he was in this conscious, compassionate communication dialogue with his sister in a place where there had been a lot of conflict. She heard it completely dissipate, dissolve and actually end in an embrace and some shed tears of love and connection. So, it’s just a little moment of something very concrete that this young person was offered and then implemented in his own right. Didn’t just implement because we were practicing conscious, compassionate communication in the classroom, implemented it in a moment where he knew he was struggling and he wanted to access compassion.

Nate Regier:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Wow, what a great example of things we can be doing to help deal with this epidemic of people not feeling seen and not seeing each other and just simple practices that can connect us in that way. What a beautiful story, thank you.

Caverly Morgan:

Thank you.

Nate Regier:

There’s so many things you’ve shared, I’d love to just go deep into each one of these-

Caverly Morgan:

Please.

Nate Regier:

… and we don’t have the time to do it but I would love to know these days. These days, where are you finding joy and fulfillment? What is percolating for you or bringing light for you?

Caverly Morgan:

Well, in this moment, I will acknowledge one thing that is bringing tremendous joy is that Maggie Steele, who works for Peace in Schools, and I just led an educator retreat and it was the first retreat of this cohort where we are training these teachers to be able to be certified in implementing our semester long curriculum. So, that was just joyous for me, it was so fulfilling. And then the other thing that came up, Nate, was I lead a lot of retreats, just led a retreat with Krista Neff at the Whidbey Institute and that was really a rich connection. I’m going to be doing more work with Dr. Kristin Neff. We’re exploring the question who is the self in self-compassion and that’s a really rich topic and that was at the Whidbey Institute and one thing that’s bring joy is that collaboration and also living on Whidbey Island. My husband and I just moved here pretty recently and it’s a stunning place to live.

Nate Regier:

Beautiful. Let’s see. That’s near Seattle, right? In the northwest?

Caverly Morgan:

You take a ferry from Seattle, mm-hmm.

Nate Regier:

Yeah. So, I did my internship for my doctorate in Tacoma at the VA Medical Center and just have such a love for the northwest. And one of my close friends and mentors lives on Vashon Island and-

Caverly Morgan:

Oh, yes, yes.

Nate Regier:

…  I spent some time-

Caverly Morgan:

Similar landscape.

Nate Regier:     Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful, wonderful. Caverly, I just want to see and affirm, you have such an amazing breadth of dimensions. From spending the time in contemplative practice – your own self-work –  to being able to translate that into a book or into books, into programs, into ways to teach it, into being able to certify people. I think this is something that a lot of people don’t appreciate what it takes to make a difference and make change in the world. It’s not just having and being or having a good idea or having a point of view. It’s being able to translate it into ways that can be taught and replicated and practiced and measured and just congratulations and I just want to affirm that. It’s really important that you provide vehicles. And so, these workshops, the different things you’re doing is bringing these things to so many more people.

Caverly Morgan:

Well, I really appreciate very much that acknowledgement and I’m in agreement with you that sometimes we don’t recognize that it all has to come together in order for something to be able to scale. And the thing I appreciate most is I don’t take personal credit for what you’re speaking about, I feel a deep call to be of service and the thing that matters most to me to communicate with you and your listeners about this is that this all can be learned. I feel like I’ve had some incredible mentors and coaches that supported me in being able to have my life be a reflection of my deepest understanding and knowing and that that can be taught, to me, is just really great news.

Nate Regier:

It is great news that we can learn it and we can teach it. And, of course, there’s catalysts and mentors and there’s so many people and situations that come together for these things to work. So, if people wanted to get a hold of you or learn more about the various things you’ve mentioned, we’re going to put these lots of links in the show notes. Is there a … What should people do if they want to learn more?

Caverly Morgan:

Well, thanks, Nate. If folks just want to learn about me or the children’s book I wrote called The Kids’ Book About Mindfulness or my adult book The Heart of Who We Are: Realizing Freedom Together, my website is caverlymorgan.org. There are not a lot of Caverlys so I have my mom to thank for that. And then realizingfreedomtogether.com is where a lot of my business work is expanding working as a consultant supporting workplaces and institutions, educational institutions. So, thanks for the opportunity to mention that, mm-hmm.

Nate Regier:

Absolutely. And thank you for who you are, for what you bring and for joining me today on this episode of the Compassionate Accountability Podcast.

Caverly Morgan:

It’s been a delight. Thank you so much, Nate.

Nate Regier:

Thanks for joining me, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Compassionate Accountability Podcast. What struck you? What can you take and use today? I’d love to hear from you. And if you haven’t already, pick up a copy of my new book, Compassionate Accountability: How Leaders Build Connection and Get Results. If you’ve already read the book, I’d appreciate your review on Amazon. Contact us today to learn more about how Next Element helps companies transform their cultures with Compassionate Accountability. And remember, embracing both compassion and accountability is the secret to great leadership and the roadmap for thriving cultures and strong brands.